The Ambitious Coach Lab
The Ambitious Coach Lab is a practical, human-centered podcast for business coaches who want to grow and scale a meaningful, sustainable practice. Through real conversations, proven frameworks, and stories from the field, we explore what it takes to build the coaching practice of your dreams.
The Ambitious Coach Lab
Being Known: How Coaches Build Trust Before They Sell
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
What does it really take for coaches to become the obvious choice before a prospect ever reaches out?
In this episode, Cam sits down with Jami Mullikin, founder of Wonder, to explore why the best coaches don’t build audiences, they build trust. Drawing from decades of experience in marketing, entrepreneurship, and working alongside coaches in the EOS ecosystem, Jami shares why personal branding is less about becoming famous and more about being known by the right people. Together, they unpack the role of community, thought leadership, and authentic storytelling in attracting ideal clients, why awareness always comes before demand, and how coaches can leverage AI without sacrificing authenticity. If you’ve ever wondered how to consistently generate opportunities without feeling salesy, this conversation offers a practical roadmap. Jami Mullikin Transcript.docx
Biography
Jami Mullikin is the Founder and Visionary of Wonder, a growth agency that helps companies running on EOS accelerate sales, marketing, and brand strategy. A lifelong entrepreneur, former agency owner, corporate sales and marketing executive, and EOS Integrator, Jami combines deep business experience with a passion for helping founders and leadership teams clarify their message and build meaningful relationships. He is also the host of the Inside the 90 podcast, where he explores leadership, entrepreneurship, and the systems that help businesses grow.
Links
Connect with Jami on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mullikin/
Learn more about Wonder: https://www.workwithwonder.com/
Check out the Inside the 90 podcast: https://www.workwithwonder.com/podcast
Win Without Pitching books: https://www.winwithoutpitching.com/books
Use code AC20 for 20% off Ninety: https://www.ninety.io/?utm_source=community&utm_medium=abl&utm_campaign=cam
Join our free LinkedIn community: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/16297012/
Welcome to the Ambitious Coaching Lab, Power99. I'm your host, Dr. Cam Lincoln. Each week we explore the real tactics, tough conversations, and breakthrough moments that drive coaching success. Let's jump into today's episode. Hello, friends. Today I am so excited to welcome Jamie Mullikan, a fellow Greenvillian, Greenvilleite, whatever we we call ourselves these days. But Jamie is the founder of Wonder, and he that is an agency that works primarily with companies running on EOS. So that's really where we started to kind of cross paths. Former integrator, which is where you were introduced to EOS. Wonder actively runs and implement has implemented EOS. And so really wanted to bring Jamie on because he has helped so many coaches and consultants, including myself, really in from a sales and marketing perspective. So super excited to have you here, Jamie. Thanks for coming on.
SPEAKER_01Man, Cam, uh, thank you very much for having me to. This is it's gonna be fun. You and I always have fun. So I'm excited to see where this goes.
SPEAKER_00That's true. I was thinking it was, it was uh one of the funniest stories that we always like to share is how we first met. And it was back when you were doing some actually recruiting and we had talked because I had talked, I don't think there was some position that I was looking at. Yeah. And I think somehow there was a mutual connection. Lance Cannington, who we both knew uh from the scan source days. And so, and then he was like, Yeah, I was just listening to Lance's band. I was like, You do realize I am said lead guitar player in this band.
SPEAKER_01So it was just like I follow you on Spotify.
SPEAKER_00Like it was just like the worlds collide. It was the I think you were literally standing where you were at.
SPEAKER_01It was just same spells, same call. So um, and that was I mean, going back, that's been almost five years ago. Yeah, it really has.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say it was right around, I think 2021. So that's checks out. Uh yeah, it was just funny. So that was the kickstart of our our uh longstanding friendship that's only gotten deeper over the years. But yeah, well, tell us like kick us off a little bit and tell us a little bit about uh your entrepreneur journey kind of into starting wonder and and where you're at too today.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um it's definitely been a journey. So uh, you know, going back, I'll keep the history pretty short, but there's some context required here. So um, you know, I I went to college to study graphic design, and when I went that graduated high school, I was like, I'm gonna start an ad agency in five years. So went to college with the plan of starting an ad agency. I don't even know where that seed got planted. Like I don't remember back to where did I discover what ad agencies do? I don't remember that. Um, but uh ended up coming out of college, going to work for an agency that was a brilliant creative agency in Greenville, South Carolina. Actually, the the people that came up with the other at Greenville have an agency called Brains on Fire.
SPEAKER_03That's so cool.
SPEAKER_01Just incredible, incredible creative agency. And I I did that when I was, you know, my first job for about three years. Um but that at what now there's visionary instincts, right? So I quit and I was like, I'm not gonna make it five years. I'm gonna start my own agency now. So at 26, I started an agency that's actually still around today in Greenville. It's called Fuel. Um, and I mean it's been handed new owners, you know, same, same name, same focus, different owners the whole time. Uh, but so I started an agency real young, 26. Did that for 12 years, uh, very passionate about marketing, right? I I'm a creative guy by background, but really love the nuance of understanding a client's business and what their challenges are. And so I really moved from creative to marketing um and had a great run entrepreneurially when I was young until this thing happened in 2008 called Lehman Brothers going bankrupt. Um, and uh they were my largest client. So we were shot dead between the eyes on September 12th of 2008. Um, and our whole industry that we were in, which was uh we were doing two things. We were doing B2B stuff, and then we were doing a lot of destination real estate marketing. But that you know, that whole real estate stuff globally just was gone. Yeah, it was a tough time in 2007, 2008. It was tough times. So, like my entrepreneurial peak was 2007. Poor timing. And my uh closest experience I've ever had to what I've read about the Great Depression was 2009. Um, and so uh tried everything we could to survive 2009. And this uh randomly at the end of 2009, someone that I knew reached out to me and said, Hey, I don't know what you're doing, but man, we've got this role at this company called Scansource, which is a one of Greenville's local entrepreneurial, you know, unicorns, you know, three, four billion dollar company now.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Um, so I reset and went corporate for four years there, a large company, Fortune 600, um, and led marketing technology. And then during that time, someone reached out to me about this company. They're like, hey, I know someone looking for a VP of marketing over at this cool technology company. So left Scansource to go to a Creamville or a Greenville at Upstate company called KeyMark. And KeyMark is a software, enterprise software system integrator. So in Scansource, we're in the technology channel on the distribution side where vendors were going through us to market to Vars and resellers, didn't customers, and up at Key Mark, where we're in the enterprise software channel. Um, after five years, I ended up being vice president of sales and marketing. So I ended up running the marketing team, had a team of about 35 sales and marketers internally at Key Mart, and was having a blast. Um and after about five years, I was like, time to do my own thing. Like my visionary, just even though it was like I was in a great place, I just can't restrain this need for change. And uh, and and and and the idea of a paycheck has always made me a little nervous. Um we'll come back to that. But so I I I I left Key Mark, I gave him a pretty good notice, and I said, Hey, I'm gonna go start my own thing. And I was like, I'm not gonna start an agency, but I call I'm gonna start a sales and marketing advisory. I didn't know what that meant, but I was like, I knew I'm much more about tying marketing and sales together versus just being the front end of marketing. Um, first person I met with was another friend of ours locally, Adam Landrum. And um, Adam today is an amazing coach, right? I mean, that's he's he's he's sold his business and is now a coach, and he's he was uh I call myself Patient Zero because when I met with Adam and I said, I'm starting this consultancy, he listened very well, which he's good at. Yeah, he got the end and he goes, Don't do that. And I was like, What do you mean? He said, I'm doing this EOS thing and I need an integrator. And he said, I'm, you know, I am an accountant that started an ad agency 20 years ago and I'm exhausted. Um, so I came in, he gave me get a grip, you know, which is the fable side of EOS. And I read that book that weekend. And because we met on a Tuesday, he gave me the book. We were continuing to talk, but I was reading the book those next week.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So my introduction in the EOS was here's this book, read it. And that that the company, Swan, in Get a Grip is the company that I left, Key Mark. It literally that's what the system, you know, they're they're a software services, you know, system integrator company. That's what I just I was so like I had so lived that book. Wow. And um, I was like, this is crazy cool. And I it just stuck with me, right? I read the book and got it. So I went, I didn't start my own thing. I went to work for uh Adam for three years and uh helped him run his agency up and up. And we officially implemented EOS with Charlie White out of Asheville. Um, and so my EOS journey really, you know, got started there. Yeah. Uh, but after about three or four years, I had the itch again. COVID, COVID, COVID had lifted. Um, and uh I was like, I'm turning 50 and I have a paycheck that scares the hell out of me because I gotta build something. So I I uh I told Adam, I said, Hey, I'm gonna um I you know, I I said, I it's time. My visionary is taking over. I was like, you, you know, you know I'm I'm wired to do something. And he said, All right, if you'll give me four months to offboard, I'll give you a consulting agreement for four months to get you started. And so he was very gracious in that. Um, and that's what led to Wonder today. Um and once we once I decided Wonder is what I was gonna do, then uh I hired Andrew Geisel. I hired my integrator. And I had my US implementer before I had my integrator. Um, and then Mark, my co-founder, and I met at like Warren's second week. We kicked off focus day. And that was two years ago in June. So we're right now at the two-year mark of of starting a company on EOS and just being on the journey. And today we're nine people, um, and really just are as pure and focused and obsessed. My role, my role as the visionary is obsession, right? And I am I am obsessed on on running our business on EOS, and I'm obsessed with the vision, you know, of what we're building.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Oh, I love that. I, you know, I've heard bits and pieces of that story, but kind of hearing it in a linear fashion, I still, it's it's just amazing to kind of see how it all kind of goes together. And then I think also you pulling from the scan source and the key mark and like the the sales side of things of kind of being able to experience that has given you such a unique perspective in coming to companies and even coaches and consultants, because I know you've worked with a couple, like I've kind of helped some stuff, um, but helping them think through that because that's such a whether you are a solopreneur or you are a you know two billion dollar company, I mean, you still have to go out there and sell something and often before that market it to where it actually goes through. Because one of the things that we talk about a lot about in on the Ambitious Coach Lab is there's really five competencies to be an ambitious coach, is really what it comes down to. First one, you gotta be clear on your vision, the why of what you're doing, right? Yes. Then from that, then you got to build an offering. So you got to package together your different tiers or your different offers and price them correctly. So once you have your vision and your offering, then you got to go sell something. You got to go do business development, which is the end all be-all lifeblood of being a coach. Uh, and then once you have that, then you got to manage your practice. If you have a couple clients, now you have to run the business of actually doing the facilitation, actually doing the billing out all the things that that go along with doing a practice. And then on the tail end, as you're continuing to do that, you have to maintain an edge. So mastery. Absolutely. Continue to reinvent yourself and and continue to sharpen your skills. And so one of the things is I've talked to thousands of coaches and consultants and fractional executives over the year is every single one of them is like, I need more leads. I can't imagine, I can ever talk to a single coach that's not been like, I need more leads, you know.
SPEAKER_01And they want the Gwen Gary leads, right? It's like the Glengarry leads.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. Uh yeah, no. Um, but you know, like one of the things that I think is an underdiscussed part of being a coach is it's kind of the marketing side of things because really it's it's almost a personal brand that you're building. It is. And so can you share a little bit of you know your experience? Like, I think a lot of coaches are uncomfortable with that. They didn't get into coaching to get into the sales and marketing game. They got into coaching to work with the leadership teams, but your path to that involves sitting in the sales and marketing seat for your practice. And so, can you kind of share a little bit about like what it takes to build a strong personal brand or get a marketing engine for that like coach consultant kind of audience? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I think uh it's a really good question. And I think my my perspective, my point of view on it has evolved, I'd say, over the past five years. Um, you know, but I I think what's also happened over the past 15 years is outside of us as individuals, you see in the world a lot of personal brands that are now escalated higher than the brand that they represent, right? Like Elon, as an example, his brand is equally or more than Tesla. Trunk, right? Like there used to be the president. That was that was the it was it was the role, right? Yeah. Now it's the personality. Um, if you look at, you know, Apple, you had Steve Jobs, you know, Microsoft, you have Bill Gates. So a lot of these brands that we've called, you know, whether you love them or hate them, that's the other thing, right? Is if people don't hate you for something, then you're not positioning yourself well.
SPEAKER_02That's very true. That's so true.
SPEAKER_01That's so true. You you you to to be strategic and to know who you were going after means that the people that you are not going after understand that, right? Um, and then there's not a fit there. So I think that the rise of the personal brand is a true thing, and we're seeing it at all scale. Um, and then, but when you get down to like, hey, I'm a consultant, I've started my practice. You know, what you need at that point in time is a coffee shop, a laptop, some ability to talk to people, and I'm a big fan of a nice business card. Yeah. It's like that really that's all it takes for anyone today to say, I'm a consultant or I'm a coach.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So true. And so, so now if that's the barrier to entry, that means there's a lot of people telling that story. And so, how do you then understand how where you fit, what your point of view is, and how you can tell your story the right way to your target audience, your ideal customer profile, in a way that cuts through all the coaching and consultants that are out there. And I think it's really the barrier to entry has gotten so low now that there's a ton. I mean, I get hit up more than anything on LinkedIn in my inbox because my title says founder, president, entrepreneur, all those things. And every coach in the world is like, hey, I can help you. And so you know, you know, my what's my favorite LinkedIn line?
SPEAKER_00LinkedIn relationships are one in the comments, not the inbox.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. So let's get into that quick is um you don't earn the right to have a conversation with your ICP by by sending them a connection and messaging them and for an ask, right? So, so if that doesn't work, what does work?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. Right.
SPEAKER_01And and I think I think what what works is not everybody is a natural salesperson, you know. I think that's one of the things I I'm you and I are both, you know, assertive and right um, you know, and and extroverts, and we get our energy from being in a community and talking to people. And that is not an ingredient requirement for success, right? There are plenty of people that are not the ones that are just gonna go out there and throw ourselves out there because we're not doing it from a pride or ego. We're doing it because we enjoy community, we enjoy connecting with people, right? But but I do I do think the today it's first uh I have a little framework that I call being known. And it's not, you know, the greatest creative brief in the world as an agency is a client that says, make me famous. Right. If that's the goal, I think it was Lenovo. You worked on that account at one point.
SPEAKER_00I did.
SPEAKER_01I think there's the story about the brief was make me famous. And there's a lot of really, you know, cutting through all the clutter. That's what every brand wants. They want to be known, right? And the famous part as a brand, it's like, yeah, I want Wonder to be famous. I want the world to know what we do and who we do it for. I don't want to be famous, you know, but I want to be known. Yeah. Right. And so I think that the part of being known, the first part is that, you know, especially in a in this parasocial world, right? If you think about LinkedIn, where it's like, you know, I've connected with a ton of people before us during I connected on LinkedIn, right? Now we're friends, we do podcasts, you know, he's a huge component now in the in the coaching world and and with his being the founder of NRG. Yeah. Um, but that came from the comments. That came from us connecting on LinkedIn and personally understanding, like, oh, we, you know, I know I see that Forrest is someone that I would be interested in and knowing personally.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right. And then once you see that, like, all right, you know someone personally, then you move to the interest. It's like, all right, well, if if Jamie seems like a person I want to know, you know, I I I can that what you know, and then you're now I'm starting talking about things that I'm interested in. Like, you know, you people know some of the things that I'm interested in, right? I mean, obviously I'm an entrepreneur and EOS, I'm a junkie, but I love Corvettes. I have a history of like my and so my son collects cars, builds them. I do it, my other son knows like I'm a Corvette dork, you know. I love good food. So all the things that I'm just passionate about, I, you know, I let some of that stuff be known, right? Because if someone knows me personally and then someone starts seeing the thing that I'm interested in, and they're like, oh, I have a shared affinity for that. You know, like, oh, you you change your own oil, you you turn wrenches. Amazing how many people get excited when you realize that they work and turn wrenches in their garage and there's a shared interest there, right? Um, so you go from personal to interest, and then I think you go to professional. And now it's like I'm building relationships. People see me as a human, and now I'm interested in what is it that you actually do? You know, and so I think you move from that that uh personal to interest to now a professional side of things, right? Um, and then you you come into the passion, right? It's like, what's my point of view professionally that I'm super passionate about? Um, and that that those four right there, what I call being known, establish trust. And if you use that framework and you think like not every post has to be about right, why how I coach and how I consult. And that's the hardest part. It's much easier for me to tell a story that just happened this morning. And and the algorithm hack right now, if you're interested in LinkedIn and how to use it, personal is crushing professional.
SPEAKER_03For sure.
SPEAKER_01I mean, and and when you see those stories, it's because we live in this world that's so automated with so much AI, with we're being slammed with stuff all the time, that when you can read a story and get to know someone, it cuts through the clutter.
SPEAKER_00Yes. I think there's like one hundred percent. The it's funny, even this morning, um, this we're recording in in July on July 10th, and and we um one of the things I I went and played soccer this morning with some of my my former teammates from college, and I am a 33-year-old, I am long past my prime, you know what I mean, as especially as a goalkeeper. Like I can't, anyways.
SPEAKER_01But did David Miller score on you?
SPEAKER_00No, uh, no. But uh a lot of people scored on me though. The um, but one of the things that I I let 33 goals in in an hour time span. And it was a we played like a 3v3 and it with one keeper. So it was like half field, almost like half court basketball, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And um, so I was I was getting scored on by both teams basically. So like, but it was funny, you know, it and I put that up today as a post of just kind of talking, not lifting myself up, but like just my I'm not trying to go out there and compete on a high level anymore. I'm just going out there to lose weight. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. My only goal. Yeah, you know, and like, and I'm telling you, it has done that stupid post has done so well. And I look back and it, I think it's because exactly what you're saying, people connect on that personal level. I think so many coaches miss this because they want to go in and basically talk all about their expertise and their knowledge, and that's what they lean into, and all they talk about is this framework or the you know, this specific thing, or worse yet, they're part of a you know organization that kind of puts content out. And I'm in such a unique position. I think you you have a similar network. You can see when these coaching organizations push content because I'll see like 15 of the same post. Correct. Yes. Okay. But I think there is something about hey, let people into that personal side, like share about the Corvette, share about soccer, you know, whatever it is that that it fascinates you or that you're interested, because then your personality comes out. And people, I would argue that clients choose the their advisor. We'll just kind of sum it up as an advisor based on how they are made to feel and like how they like just the individual.
SPEAKER_01You know what I mean? Yeah, that maybe let me say if I have the book. I have uh I have a bookshelf here, but um I I do not have it, but a a book specifically on what you're talking about right now right now is the four conversations by Blair and I think I have your copy, so yes. So so all I was gonna mention this, I think. Is the right time to do it. So three books for any coach to read. Um, is uh The Four Conversations by Blair Ann's. Fantastic. You know, Blair's whole background is in mostly marketing and agencies, but it's evolved to broader professional services, and he is the sales lead on thought leadership for how to sell. His first book called The Win Without Pitching Manifesto.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01Is huge, huge, huge in helping you understand how you sell value. And then he has a podcast called Two Bobs, and he does it with it's twobobs.com. Uh he does it with with David Baker. David Baker is the positioning expert, right? He is his book called uh the expert craftsman book. I don't know the exact, I can't remember the title, but he has a podcast. I'll find it and link out to it. Yeah, an expert craftsman. And those three books uh will give you so much insight about how you position yourself. And then in the four conversations and Blair ends, the first one is called the prohibitive conversation. And that is everything, the conversation they're having with you before you're in the room. And that is your LinkedIn content, your website, your story. Are you consistent? Have you been out there, you know, for a while telling the same story on these things? And I think that's a huge thing that you've got to pay attention to is how much we do our research on the buyer journey along the way incrementally. We don't be like, aha, I need to hire a coach. Let me start at zero, right? It's like, no, you're thinking about, I see these people that have coaches. It seems like I don't know if I'm right for that. And you're probably, you know, talking to people and someone's like, you need a coach, you need a coach, you need a coach. And what when we when we whether you're a coach or you're uh, you know, we have a five billion dollar client, right? Where yeah, or or the large enterprise in B2B, people talk about leads. And it's like, I need leads, and what they miss is you need awareness, right? And so the awareness part is where if it takes a buyer nine to 18 months of thinking about do I want a coach and what is this coach? And you know, I've thought about needing one for a while. God, this entrepreneurial journey is so rough, right? You've got to be along that, you gotta be there then. And I'm gonna still some a new learning for me. That's why I love being in communities with other smart people is you know, Kyle Melee. Yeah, uh, mealy. I how do you pronounce Kyle's last name?
SPEAKER_00Melee, yeah, Kyle Melee.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. From next level revenue. You know, he says the goal of awareness is being on the short list of the top three people they think about.
SPEAKER_00So good.
SPEAKER_01And that brought me so much clarity in everything that we do. That was just a that was a sentence that has reframed my conversation with clients now to be like awareness is what does it take to be you know, one of the one just the shortlist of top three? And what that means is where are your prospects hanging out and how can you be there? Don't worry about any other thing in the world, right? It's just where are they hanging out? And most entrepreneurs, business owners that are gonna hire a coach are at least stalking LinkedIn. They may not be in posting, they may not be engaging with stuff, but then I would say the the most people of everyone who's ever said, I see you on LinkedIn, right? Like, which which for you and I is a common thing, you know. Um, I bet I bet three out of four I have never seen on LinkedIn, right? They're not people I'm connected with, you know. But if it's a coffee shop or you're walking to the EOS conference and someone's like, Jamie, what's up? You know, and it's we've had a little bit of conversation, but it is amazing what I'm not a great writer. I'm not a great, I am not a social media influencer. I just I just put crap out there.
unknownRight. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, you but you have this, you have an axis of of amplic amplification and relevance. So I'll bring all this back now to the idea of being known in business development. Yeah. So business development's a challenge for all of us. Um, and when we think about the idea of being known, you know, a viral post is amplification. Yeah. Right. But what you need is that upper quadrant of relevance. Yeah. So when you think about relevant, irrelevant, you know, viral or not, right? That upper quadrant is the the amplifying relevance. And what happens personally as you work on LinkedIn is as you're doing your story and you're just telling your things. I'm I don't believe in content calendars. I'm not a you gotta write every day. I just feel compelled and I'll put stuff out there. Yep. Um but as those things get engagement with your network and the your second level network, you know, you're getting amplified, but it may not be relevant. But what I found now on LinkedIn is I'm not getting as much amplification, but I'm getting super high relevance, right? So the the impressions don't really matter. I may post a podcast episode and get 200 impressions and six likes, but the six people are the ones that like my podcast.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_01So like I don't need to get 20,000 impressions for the amplification. I just need to make sure that my network is of the people that I want to be in front of. And when I'm putting my content, that those are the people that are engaging with it, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I think that's time that packed. I guess that is awareness to the top of mind.
SPEAKER_00I I love that. I love that approach. Uh, let's double-click into that for just a second. So when a coach is thinking about from a content standpoint, or or let's just let's just strictly take a tactics of okay, do I do the coffee shop? Do I do LinkedIn? Do I do video pod, you know, podcast appearances? Like when they're thinking about that, does it need, I mean, are it sounds like what you're saying? I mean, we need to frame this around what's gonna ultimately drive trust where I'm in the right situations to where, like, that's one of the things that I love about energy specifically for EOS implementers, is because what it does is it uh does exactly what you're saying is basically, okay, yeah, it probably is a nine to 18 month journey from the time when an entrepreneur thinks, oh crap, I need some help, to hiring a coach because it's a big investment. And what I always talk to EOS implementers about with energy is hey, here is you know, me, I'm a big story brand guy. I know you like, but there's what they call the transitional call to action. Absolutely. Because, okay, sure, yeah, your end goal is to get that prospect to say, yes, I'm gonna bring you in to pay you for your session, you know, to come in and run a session for us or multiple sessions. We're gonna do this thing. Most often they're not ready for that, but the transitional call to action, well, hey, we have this free community over here. Why don't you come be a part of it? And what that's gonna do for the implementers, they're gonna stay in close proximity to that person. So in nine months, when they're ready, or six months or whenever it is, who in the world are they gonna call? It's the person that's right smack bab in front of them. Right. Yes. And so I think that's where you start to compound that with, okay, from a community standpoint or involvement, whether it's energy or vistage or whatever it is, being in the place and then having LinkedIn where you're having that as a consistent thing, and then whatever else other things you want to stack on top of that to where you're just you can't help, but you know, it's almost just increasing your at bats at that point.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And I so and and and specifically working with with founder sellers. Um, whether you're a 15-person company and you're the founder and you're still selling, or whether you're a coach and you know, you're not and staff, but the the you just got you gotta sell. Yep, my you you can't give someone a playbook that that doesn't align with their strengths, right? So, um, so my ask is for for a coach or a founder is um if I if I had to give you four options and you only get to choose one, right? Would would you rather uh network, right? Which let's just call that face to face. Um would you rather do cold outreach, which is, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna call people, I'm gonna send emails. Uh would you rather be a subject matter expert and write? Um, or would you rather be on stage, you know, speaking and presenting? And if you just think about those four buckets, that not everybody is right for all of them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right. You know, I think you, and some people may have more than one, but we gotta find the one.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Right. So I mean, I think you're you're a you're a natural writer, you're a good storyteller, but you're great in person.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01Like I would assume your gifts are not gonna be, I'm just gonna do cold outreach and email people and cold call people.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01And and and become you, but not me. And you're you are probably totally comfortable being on stage, right? Presenting, but I think the first two, you're probably better at writing and being in person.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And so knowing that, it's like, how do we give you a marketing strategy that helps you live in those two lanes? Right. Yeah. You may you may have a coach who's like, I ain't calling or emailing anybody. And and um, you know, I'm uh um I I I'm not gonna do the networking thing and you know, wear my wear myself out, but I write, I have written as a communicator forever, right? And so can we take your writing and build some presentations and get you in front of people speaking?
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So because if you can get to an NRG group and you can just stand in front of a group of that the of people like that, and let's say if you're if you're a coach, supplement on the EOS, like I know there's more coaches listening to this than just EOS. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like we can think of vintage or whatever. If there's a community of people that is your audience, then and you know how to write, then if you can write, you can frame that as a story to present and have the opportunity to get in front of them, right? So I think just thinking about those four, you know, strategies and which ones you are best fit to do. But if I came in and said, here's your marketing plan, we're gonna do all these things, it's it's not gonna work. You know, you're just you're going against your grain.
SPEAKER_00That I I see that tension a lot because you get a lot of, oh, well, this worked for Justin Moss is a great example. Uh Justin was a guest on the show. He talked a lot about he is a cold call guy. I mean, he was uh, you know, like that's just he is that's just he's cut those teeth, right? Like, yes, um, and a lot of people I think look at him and it's like that's a like that works for him, but you can't just run his place because you're not Justin Moss. I'm not Justin Moss. Like, yeah, I and so that's I think that's a huge shift because you get a lot, and that's where it goes into what you were talking about earlier, where you have a lot of the at least I get a lot of these, these people, these marketing experts or sales experts that come in and they're like, hey, I can help you, you know, drive leads through this specific motion. It's like, well, I don't know if that's the right play for me.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00You know, yeah, it may be, but you know, and I think you you can get as a coach of like you get a little desperate sometimes because you gotta put bread on the table and it's like, well, man, let me just find some play that works. But I think you have to do the work and figure out which one of those four, which two of those four really work for you. What's in your comfortability spot that you know allows you to tap into your natural strengths?
SPEAKER_01And and I I think, I think the challenge, if we if we go to LinkedIn and to the content, like the people who like I'm comfortable writing, you know, the historical challenge there has been, no, I'm great at writing, but I I don't have the time and I can't keep the cadence up, right? And I think this is now, and we were uh we do a thing on Thursday night that uh we're now calling Taco Thirst Day, um, where you know a few of us just get together and talk. And uh originally there was one ground rule we could not discuss LinkedIn because it's all founders and you know and people who write no LinkedIn. So by default, what does the whole thing become? An AI conversation. So I was we start at six, we start at six uh 15, and I was gonna leave last night at 8:30, and at 12:39, I was still in my driveway on the phone because after we all left, we're still having conversations about all this stuff. But I do want to give the context to the power of AI now. And I think what has evolved in the past six months is so powerful and it's moved away from I'm gonna automate the the engagement on LinkedIn. I've been against that from the beginning. I was like, right. You can help me automate content, yes, and you can help me getting to Cam faster. Yes. But I if if if I am using AI to comment for me, yes, to in any way, then you're out of integrity. I think I think that is to me, that is uh no different than just flat out lying. Yes. So if you're masking behind someone else and you're outsourcing this and they are using your profile, you to me, you are out of integrity as a coach. So all that part, it's like, well, well, if I can't do that, how do I do it? And the crazy, crazy thing now is, and we're in the middle of we've we've actually done this, and then I'm I was coaching someone through it last night. I was like, do you record all of your Fathom calls? I mean, all of your Zoom calls with something like Fathom read AI, Auto. Right, right. And they're like, Yeah, and I'm like, just go download all your transcripts. You know, like if you've been doing that for six months and you got five meetings a week, it's like you have 200 transcripts, right? Download the transcripts, get into any AI. I'm a I'm a fan of using Claude, is what I call my harness, right? Um, but then put that in a folder and actually get to AI and say, review these transcripts and tell me the six things that I really have strong points of view on. Right. And then it's gonna go through and it's gonna blow your mind when it comes back and says, you know, these are the things that you, you know, over all these calls that you're you're talking about very passionately, um, and in a unique and different way, right? And then be like, oh, give me six more. It's gonna give you more. And then be like, right, wow, those are awesome. But now narrow it down to three. Yeah. And it's gonna narrow it down. And you're gonna be sitting there and it's not gonna do the work for you. You did the work, you did the conversations. But if we can listen in to our our previous self, yeah, it's it's so fast and crazy how deep you can really figure out your point of difference and where your voice is. And you can ask it like, what's my tone? What's if I was gonna write, should I be more professional or more? And it's gonna it's gonna help you get some of this stuff in a way we've never been able to do before. And now once you have that, cool, you used AI to do deep research really fast on who you are, what you're passionate about, how it makes it different. Then I'm having no issue with I don't even type anymore. Then you just you use those points and you say, like, hey, this is what I want to talk about. I use whisper, uh whisper flow. So I just hit my keyboard and I talk and I'm like, I want to write a post about this, this, and this. These are the things that are so true to me. You have to put your point of view in there, and and then it's gonna give me a draft in three minutes or less. Right. And then I can look at that post and be like, all right, well, I'm gonna edit this and change this, this, and this. Now that you've done that, write nine more for me. And it's gonna write all nine for you. And you know, you're gonna have 12 posts that came from you and how you speak and what you talk about, and it's gonna surface those to a draft that's better than any contract copywriter you would ever ask to do this on your behalf. Right. And then it comes back to you, and now you get to edit it, decide what you want to post and when. And like that is so crazy cool how easy that is now.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that that is that's so cool. The the day and age that we live in, we've got so many resources at our fingertips and that, but I think it's it's really getting back into what will help my personality and my, you know, that that unique point of view come out. And if as we can bring that. So that's that's really good. I appreciate you sharing that. So I want to shift gears here a little bit and kind of closing. Um, one of the things that you and I see very similarly um is this idea of community. I mean, it's just naturally come out, you know, even in this conversation. Um, but one of the things that I think is a an untapped, we can call it a tactic, if you will. Um, and I think Andrew, our mutual friend and and your implementer and a good friend of mine, Andrew Geisel, um, he is such a good example of a coach who has tapped into building an entrepreneurial community around him. And he's got trusted partners in that. And then we've got and the the EOS ecosystem that we have here in Greenville is very special to me. Yes. And Andrew's positioned himself so well. So can you talk a little bit about your point of view on how coaches can leverage and position themselves as community leaders and use that as an advantage in their pipeline, but also just, I mean, strictly just true personal brand, you know?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, because Andrew, I think, is such a great example of that. And you also have been a great example of that too. So I've learned from two of the best.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Uh well, no, I I I appreciate that. And that's that's why, yeah, we have something special here and it's fun, you know. And I think uh I've got three points to answer that, and I gotta get them clear in my head really quick. Um, the first is help first, right? A just a natural disposition to help first. Yeah, right. Um and I think we have a strong community in Greenville of people like you know, you, I'm wired that way, Andrew, who are just like, hey, I'm just here to help you. And you take that idea, and then you take Forrester's idea of net weaving. And you know, we did it, he and I did a podcast episode on that. Um, plug for my podcast inside the 90, insight90.com, 90.com.
SPEAKER_03I will make that great.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So we uh, but you know, we talked about this idea. He introduced you the idea of net weaving, which is when you have a help first mentality, you're not networking. You're not building a bunch of relationships because you have a motive. You're building a bunch of relationships because you really enjoy helping people. And when you build a bunch of relationships from a help first person, people call you because they're like, I need a coach. Who do you know? Right. And so you you become a trusted resource. Um, so I think that first of help first. Second is understanding that net weaving is this idea of just bringing all your relationships together.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and then third is is the queen bee, man. You know, that's uh so tying this back to coaches. This is a great place to end. When I when I first uh started before Wonder, I started a company that was called Stellar, which was a recruiting firm. And that was because so many people told me you're so good at helping people find jobs, you should just do this. And so that helped first person personality, that net weave of where I was really connected to a bunch of creatives over my career, that led to me starting a recruiting firm. Um, and and I hired a coach, and his name's Gil Garretsen. And Gil runs a company called BizTrek, and he's been doing this for 30 years. He's a successful entrepreneur in the 80s, early software entrepreneur, yeah, sold his business and exited, has been in Greenville for over 30 years. Um, and because of conversations, and I was like, I need a I need a marketing coach. And people are like, You need a marketing coach? And I went, yes, I got a lot in my head, and I need a filter. Now I'm great at filtering for other people, but I'm gonna have to have a filter for me. So Gil has come along beside me for the past three years. And the the irony is when we first met, I told him, I was like, you don't remember this, but it was probably 2002. We had a meeting to connect for coffee, and it never happened. So I had been carrying Gil's name as the top of my list for 25 years. Wow. Let's say over 20 years.
SPEAKER_03Sure. Right.
SPEAKER_01So I knew who he was, I knew who he worked with in town. And when I needed a coach, he's who I called. And that was a 20-year sales cycle. But his whole thing is he calls it the Queen Bee. And he says, for a coach or a consultant or a founder-led seller, you've got to figure out who your community is. And like for me, I'm in, I've got some overlaps. Like I'm I'm, you know, I'm in the community of EOS people. I'm in the community of entrepreneurial people in Greenville, South Carolina. I'm in the community of agency owners nationally. Yeah. I'm also in the community of all the creatives that I've worked with inside of agencies, right? So we've got these different hives. Yeah. Right. So each of those is a hive. Sometimes they overlap. And what you need to be seen is a bee in that hive, right? So if I'm talking to entrepreneurs, guess what? I'm an entrepreneur. You know, I relate to them there. If I'm talking to ad agency owners, I've been one of you for 30 years. Like we relate to each other. There's empathy in that hive. Yeah. You know, when we talk about EOS, we relate to each other. There's empathy there. And so what you're looking at is how do you help first? Within those hives, then how do you be a how do you be a a bee in that hive? That's where empathy comes in. But growth and and yeah, helping first, not not monetizing that hive. But if your hive is your audience, then you got to figure out who the queen bees are. And you are the queen bee of the AOS community. I mean, that's we've talked about that. Like Cam Lawson, man. You are one. Uh there's multiple bees in that hive, right? Yeah. But you are a major influence and connector in that community. So I need to get connected to you, not out of a selfish motive, out of how can I help you be more recognized in this community, right? And I think that that idea of who where are my customers and what is their hive. And then through a couple of hives, how can I get some Venn diagrams? Like, yes. Like give give me give me a marketing leader that's working for a company that runs on EOS. Like you start overlapping those hives, and it's like, I'm one of you, and I'm connected to the people that are gonna endorse me. Like it that's the magical. That's where magic happens. So I gotta give that that whole framework was new to me. And I told Gil, I was like, that is the most powerful positioning that a founder can have is understanding who's your hive and who are the queen bees in that. And you work those center of influences, you call those queen bees. And and you're not calling and being like, Cam, I do marketing. What clients do you have that I can help? It's like, hey, we should know each other. Yeah. Tell me about what you're doing. What does good look like for you? You know, the reciprocal, all right. Well, this is what I'm looking for. Let me know if I can ever help you, right? Um, and then we have another shared friend who's now a coach. Uh, we have Toby Stanzel. You talk about someone who's gonna cold call, man. Like Toby understands what a hive is. Yeah. And Toby is fine picking up the phone and calling. And he's like, I ain't selling anything. I'm finding a connection as fast as I can to build trust without selling anything. It's all help first.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I need to get Toby and Adam on the podcast. They would both awesome, yes. Yes, yes. Uh, that's so true. I it's I I I remember when you I think we were having uh lunch with my dad. I think I was introducing you to my dad for the first time. And that's when you dropped the Queen B on me, and I was like, what are you talking about? And then you you know elaborate on it. I was like, oh, that's that. Yeah, yeah, I guess you know, it's interesting. But yeah, it's it's so true. I mean, that centers of influence and finding that. And I think what you do when you start to have those conversations is you find, oh wow, we, you, Jamie, and me are so in alignment of what we're trying to build. And then you can start to collaborate and work together, and then it starts to lead to things. So I think that's what it it really comes down to that mentality of help first. I mean, it just all boils down to that. So those are those three were great. I I appreciate that. Man, Jamie, this has been awesome. I I appreciate you coming on in.
SPEAKER_01I'm like, let's let's let's do part two, you know.
SPEAKER_00I'm all about that. That's fine. No, we could totally do that. Uh, because I think there's so much, I think we could dive into community even more and even on the marketing and and sales side. But um, just for sake of time, I mean, I always like to ask guests on the tail end here, you know, just two questions. Uh, so the first one is hey, if you could look back at rookie Jamie, you know, dreams of starting his own ad agency, you know, way back in the day. Uh, but now you have all the knowledge and experience that you have now. What advice would you give yourself?
SPEAKER_01Man, so um, so I'm living that advice. All right. I started an agency at 26. I restarted an agency at 52, right? And and um, and I started it with one primary conviction that I um didn't know what visionary was, right? I'm just entrepreneurial, and my joke has been my business cards come with an expiration date. Because every four to five years in my career, I have made a jump. And and I've made a jump because things where I was got tough, or you know, it was like maybe it was economics, maybe it was like, hey, I don't really enjoy this company I'm working for, and this opportunity sounds better. Um, you know, or like, hey, this thing's, you know, I'm running an agency in 2004 at the time, and like we lost a big client, and a client offered me an opportunity to come work for them. So I I just jumped ship, you know. I I exited that company, and that co-founder is still my best friend. We were on the phone until midnight last night, right? He was one of the guys with us last night. So left all in good, you know, in in and uh good graces in all the situations. I never burned the bridge, but I just get the itch. And so when I started my 10-year target when I was 50 years old, is I said, whatever I start, I'm committed to growing it for 10 years and building a business of value. So I'm that was four, that was uh yeah, that was four and a half years ago, right? Yeah. Now Wonder started about three years ago and we launched it two years ago. So the Wonder brand is now I'm four years into my 10-year target of what I said when I was gonna be 60. Um, but when we started Wonder, it was it was 2020, it was two years into that journey. So we have an eight-year target. And the eight-year target is that I've built a business of value. I'm not gonna allow myself to give up, I'm not gonna allow myself to pivot when things get hard. I'm doubling down on Wonder as an agency to focus on brands that run on EOS and then a Venn diagram of B2B Tech. We've got a couple other verticals that we're really strong in. Yep. But like we're that's it. And you know, when times get tough, I'm doubling down. I'm not gonna allow myself to find a way out. Because what my younger self regrets is not having perseverance. So if you're an entrepreneur, if you're starting something, it is rough, man. You're gonna have. We know this. We touched, we talk about hitting the ceiling, but when you're starting from one person to two people to six people to 12 people, you hit so many ceilings, it's so easy to give up. So my number one tip is to myself is persevere. And I'm not that important. And if you trust God, He's gonna lead you where He wants you to be. So persevere for me is now a faith, a faith uh ambition, not a brute force. I'm gonna do anything I can and rip everything up and do it my own way. That's what I've done every four or five years. So just yeah, just perseverance and knowing God's got me where he wants me, and I just gotta trust him.
SPEAKER_00Oh man, that's a good word. This may very interrelate since we're already talking current, but uh the second question I always like to ask is well, what's a lesson you're in the middle of learning right now?
SPEAKER_01Perseverance.
SPEAKER_00Felt like I was kind of teeing that one up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, God's got a plan.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01He's bigger than I am. And he, you know, I have um Andrew Geisel, our own programer. We had our quarterly last Wednesday, and he called me two nights ago, and he was traveling. He drove to Virginia for one of his sessions, and he was coming back and he said, Hey, how do you feel like last week went? And um, I said, Well, before I tell you, I want to hear how do you feel like last week went. And he actually said, he said, you are exactly where you are meant to be. And what you are doing is absolutely incredible. And we have a lot of challenges. We're a nine-person agency, which is I didn't want to start an agency again because nine people is so hard, right? So, but if you look at all the contents, there's lots of things that we could be ripping up, you know, tearing things apart to make things better. And I'm like, no, this is, you know, this is exactly what I'm meant to be doing. We're creating value for our community, for our clients. And regardless of how much I want to make, go some do some shiny new thing because I'm high visionary, just perseverance, double down, I'm right where God wants me to be.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's uh that's a really good word. Man, I I appreciate you coming on and and sharing all your wisdom. I know I've really appreciated your friendship over the years.
SPEAKER_01Uh you've you've had you too, brother. It's it's it's a ton of fun.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm very thankful we're we're in the same neck of the woods. Uh, but I mean, let's say somebody wants to get in touch with you or learn more about Wonder. I mean, what where's the best place to get in touch with you?
SPEAKER_01You can find me on LinkedIn.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so Jamie Mullike comment on your stuff.
SPEAKER_01Yes, uh, so it's Jamie Mullikan's J and I, my name's actually Jameson. So I just go by Jamie. So it's it's Jamie Mulliken and I K I N. Um, so if you just if you know you can find me on LinkedIn connected to Cam. Um, and uh you can find me at Flywheel in Greenwill, South Carolina. Uh so we run out of that co-workspace, which is an amazing uh contributor to the overall community. The energy is awesome. Um and then on email, you can find me well on the website workwithwonder.com. And then email is jamejmi at workwithwonder.com.
SPEAKER_00Cool. Well, I will put all of that in the show notes and I'll include the inside the 90. I'm not gonna be selfish to put my episode on inside the 90. I'll put the just straight link to the show. Uh, but go listen to my episode. No, it's good.
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah, we actually that's true. We have an awesome episode. So, two, it it just parallels to this or the conversation where the first one of the book with Forrest. Like Forrest was networking, I mean net weaving, and then you and I and Andrew had the conversation about what it's like to build a community. So, you know, go get inside the 90 and uh go find those. And they're they're continuing on this exact thread.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's so true. But well, cool. Well, Jamie, thank you for for coming on and and uh thank you for listening. We've got lots more episodes coming your way on how to grow and scale a coaching practice. Thanks for tuning in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, man, this was a blast. Good to see you.
SPEAKER_00That's it for today's episode of the Ambitious Coach Lab. My hope is that something here helps you sharpen your craft and keep building a coaching practice you're proud of. Before we wrap, a quick thank you to our sponsor, 90. If you're coaching leadership teams, having your clients run their entire world in 90 truly elevates your work. Vision, rock, scorecards, issues, it all lives in one centralized place. The clarity keeps your clients aligned between sections and makes every conversation you have with them more focused and more impactful. I've used 90 with over 500 leadership teams, and I can tell you it makes great companies better and great coaches even more effective. Feel free to use the promo code AC20 for 20% off. Again, that's AC20 for 20% off. Thanks for hanging out with me today. I'm Cam. Cheering on as you grow your ambitious coaching practice. We'll see you next time.