You Don’t Need to Reinvent Yourself to Build a Coaching Practice with Darren Lawson

What if the expertise you’ve spent decades building is already the foundation for a successful coaching practice?

In this episode, Cam sits down with his father, Dr. Darren Lawson, to explore how coaches and consultants can build a compelling offering without reinventing themselves. Darren shares his 35+ year journey from higher education professor and dean to communication consultant, executive coach, and fractional leader, highlighting how his academic expertise became a competitive advantage rather than something to overcome. They discuss how to identify the real problems clients will pay to solve, why communication breakdowns often stem from either structure or people, and how great coaches create value by helping leaders gain clarity, alignment, and traction. Darren also unpacks the role of facilitation, emotional intelligence, and servant leadership in helping organizations navigate complex challenges and create lasting change.  

Biography

Dr. Darren Lawson is the founder of Paradox Communication Consulting, where he helps organizations improve communication, strengthen leadership, and navigate change. With more than three decades of experience spanning higher education, executive leadership, consulting, coaching, and organizational development, Darren brings a unique blend of academic rigor and real-world application to his work. He holds a PhD in Communication Studies from the University of Kansas and specializes in helping leaders diagnose organizational challenges, create alignment, and build healthier, more effective teams. 

Links

Connect with Darren on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/darrenlawson/ 

Learn more about Darren’s work: https://www.theparadoxway.com 

Learn more about Anthony Giddens:  https://www.ebsco.com/research-starters/sociology/structuration-theory 

Use code AC20 for 20% off Ninety: https://www.ninety.io/?utm_source=community&utm_medium=abl&utm_campaign=cam 

Join our free LinkedIn community: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/16297012/ 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Ambitious Coach Lab, powered by Nightmare. I'm your host, Dr. Cam Lawson. Each week we explore the real tactics, tough conversations, and breakthrough moments that drive coaching to death. Let's jump into today's episode. All right. Well, hello, friends. We have a very special episode today. We have my father, Dr. Darren Lawson, with us today. My dad is the founder and consultant with Paradox Communication Consulting. We will dive all into that because we did a little bit of a joint venture together on that. And so we'll we'll unpack that a little bit. But we're going to talk all things really about how he's developed his offering and then a little bit about his mastery of how he has a unique offering as a PhD in the business world. Those are rarities. So welcome to the show, Dad. Super excited to have you. Thanks, Cameron.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

I I love being here and uh love what you're doing with the show. So yeah, it's a great honor to be here with you today.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

It's uh it's kind of one of those uh, you know, I feel like the like pressure is like higher. It's like you gotta like interview my dad. What is this? Uh so no, it's it's gonna be fun. So, but I mean to kick it off, why don't you share a little bit about kind of your journey into consulting? Because obviously I have a little bit of color, but would love to have you share that for our uh listeners.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Well, for me, it started 36 years ago. Um, and and I would love to say it was like this magical, you know, like transition into consulting, but it it was as simple as this. And and and it kind of created phase one of the consulting that I'm doing. So in higher ed, you you always have your summers off. So you're generally looking, well, what am I gonna do this summer to make some money and what all? So back in 1990, um two of my colleagues, David and Charlotte Burke and I were teaching business communication courses uh in higher ed, and we loved that. And so toward, I think it was toward the end of the second semester in 1990, we were all talking about, well, what are you gonna do this summer? Uh, I don't know yet. What about you? And it was it was a yearly thing. But then we came up with the idea wouldn't it be great if we could take what we're teaching in the businesscom classroom and take it out to local businesses. So we founded uh it was at the time it was called Professionally Speaking, a communication consultant service. And it initially uh we we tried to kind of do a direct market to local businesses and and organizations. And we found it difficult because they didn't know who we were, they had never seen our work before. So it was like that that didn't work. So then we changed our approach and we ended up going through the local community colleges uh that offered professional development to local businesses. And so we started with Greenville Tech, uh, South Carolina's largest technical college, and we they hired us to come in and do a six-hour seminar. Uh and it was great. Working with Greenville Tech was just ideal because they took care of promoting it, they took care of enrolling participants and then giving us space to hold the training. So, from that standpoint, it was a it was a great segue into the the industry, uh, but doing it indirectly through the community colleges. Um, and then what would happen, attendees would come and they would really, really enjoy what we had done in the training session, and they would go back to their bosses and say, Oh, you should get Darren Lawson and Charlotte Burke and David Burke to come and do some consulting. So that that worked great. Then what happened was the tech colleges would share with each other. So Greenville Tar, excuse me, Greenville Tech recommended it to Tri-County Tech, and Tri-County Tech would hire us to come in, and then Tri-County Tech recommended it to Denmark Technical College. So before we knew it, we we were accidentally into the uh the system. And and and for 10 years, we basically continued with that, and that was doing the stand-up training. And I I loved it, it was great. Um, and then we kind of had to make a transition because both the Burks and uh I were leaving on leaves of absence to do our doctoral work. Uh, you were one year old, and uh their son was uh about uh six months old, and we all took out and moved to different parts of the country and did our doctoral work. And uh that was just great because my doctoral work included courses and training and development and communication assessment. So that was phase one. That was phase one of it. And then I I would say phase two, uh, after we did our doctoral degrees, we kind of changed our approach slightly. Uh we rebranded into millennium communication because it was uh turning into the millennium, and we thought that was really cool at the time. Didn't think about well, what happens 20 years from now, you know, when when it's not the millennium anymore, but that was where we were at the time. And we continued offering training seminars, but we broadened to include two more areas, and that was facilitated process improvement, going into an organization, a department or a location, and facilitating the discussion of the employees that were experiencing tension points. And then we would help guide them out of that. And I could talk about that later on too. The second thing we started doing was organization-wide assessment. And that was something that we had both learned in our doctoral degrees. And to be honest, Cameron, I found that that these two new areas were much more fulfilling for me as opposed to doing a six-hour seminar. Um, and so that was a that was a nice change, but I you know, I can still do that, but but now I've got these additional tools. And then phase three, and that's kind of where we started today, it happened in 2024. Um, and I transitioned away from higher education and I decided to go full-time with the consulting business, which I have to point to you as putting that idea in my head. And so I really appreciated that because it was like, wow, I hadn't thought about this, but you were like, hey, we maybe we should do something together. So two years ago, I rebranded once again to Paradox Communication Consulting. And again, I've done everything that I've been doing for 30 years, but I've added two additional tools in my toolbox. And the first of those is coaching. So I went through the training process and I've become a certified executive coach. I've also become a certified organizational development coach, and finally a certified change management coach. So coaching's a little different because I want to work one-on-one or maybe with a small group of people, and I don't necessarily give them the answers, I just guide the answers out of them. So that's been a lot of fun to do. And then the second thing I did, and again, I have you to thank for that because we went to a session on fractional work together, and I was like, wow, that this is something maybe I could do. So now I can offer businesses communication support on a fractional basis. Uh, so that that's the 36-year journey into the consulting world. So uh I hope that answered your question.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Yeah, no, that's great. I, you know, it's um it's amazing, you know, kind of hearing you talk about that because there has been so much um change in the world, you know, over 36 years. And I mean, even the the iterations strictly from a brand standpoint are fascinating. Like I had kind of forgotten about some of that of how, you know, there are iterations of things, and then little, you know, you kind of touched on it a little bit, but then uh a big stint and as a dean of a university, you know, teaching and and almost doing the the consulting and communication work, but from an academic standpoint, like there's just so much well-roundedness that probably came from that. But let's talk about kind of the most recent iteration, right? So when you transitioned out of academia, maybe what what were what was maybe one of the biggest surprises uh kind of getting back into more of like the full-time consultant work? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

I I think the the biggest surprise, and maybe it wasn't a surprise, but I I just found how hungry leaders are for clarity. They want uh to get the business from point A to point B in as clear and as communicative a way as possible. So so that was a good reminder to me because the the change hasn't occurred. You know, and and then in academia, we we kind of debate ideas, we discuss theories, we apply them to case studies, all of that's good, you know, to help uh an 18 to 22-year-old kind of think through that. But in business, what I found is that people want traction, they want frameworks that can help them make decisions today. The bottom line, they want outcomes with demonstrated success. So that was something I had to make a transition to. And another surprise was just how my academic background translated. I I assumed I might have to reinvent myself. Um, and I instead I found that organizations just desperately need someone who can help them diagnose the communication tension points they're having, interpret the behavior, and then give language and structure so that people who are feeling these tension points can articulate them through me to top management. And so I've during during my 35 years, I guess I've had a foot in the academic robote and I've also had a foot in the consulting robote. And so sometimes that can be a little unfeeling weird because you don't feel like you've got your sp your footing in either one. But I found that my academic side provided kind of theoretical pegs on the wall. That's how I used to describe it to my students. That if they're explaining something to me, I can go over and say, you know what, that sounds like, and then hang it on that peg. And so what I found is um my training in academia gave me those pegs to help the business world hang different issues. And in turn, my experience in the business world fed back into my teaching. My credibility was enhanced. I usually the first day of class, I would say, I also founded my own consulting company in 1990, and I have been consistently working with businesses to help improve their communication. Wow, did you see the eyes look up and go, oh, this guy knows what he's talking about. It's not just book knowledge, it's actually he's out working with with actual business clients. So I I found the two, and now that I've got the footboat, excuse me, the foot out of the academia rowboat, I'm I've stepped over into the consulting rowboat and and I'm feeling a little bit less uh less problematic now.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Yeah, no, that I mean, I I can attest to that when you have professors that quote unquote have have kind of lived in the real world or you know, whatever. Yeah, uh it's it just adds validity or even just uh you want to dive into it a little bit more because it uh most of the time you your students aren't necessarily looking to get into higher education, right? To be teachers, they're taking their knowledge and then moving into the business world. So I think those that have had that level of experience just become that much more unique. And I love how you tied it to it made you more well-rounded where you can go to the theoretical, and there's a little bit of intentionality on this last iteration from a brand standpoint that you actually came up with. We called it, you know, paradox communication, which is actually a little bit of a play on words, a very subtle play on words, that it's a pair of docs. Paradox communication, a pair of docs. And so that's right, there's a little bit of, hey, there's not a lot of PhDs running around in the business world, but we actually, I would argue, need that because that level of theoretical understanding and level of thinking on business cases is something that there are a lot of consultants out there and coaches that, you know, just are good at branding themselves. But I think having the level of depth of a PhD coming in, because it gets to a point where you get complex enough that you do need, you don't need just an MBA, you do need a little bit deeper thinking about the specific, you know, lane that you're struggling with or whatnot. And so I think that's a really unique aspect and you've really built your offering around that. Can we talk a little bit about kind of how you've packaged one of the competencies that we talk a lot about here on this show is is offering. Once you kind of understand the vision for your practice, which you've had that in place since you know 1990, but you got to start to go and kind of build and package an offering together that you're actually gonna go and sell. And I would say that probably a lot of coaches and consultants think that they need to create something completely new. You kind of alluded to that when you said you felt like you had to reinvent yourself, but and in reality you didn't. It was actually already there. So, can you talk about how you identified what businesses would actually pay for? You've got a couple different offerings out there, but can you talk to that a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I I think I I pay attention to the pain points that the leaders repeat to me. So, tell me what what uh tension you're experiencing right now. And not just surface complaints, I I I want uh the patterns underneath that are causing it. Because sometimes you can, it's like uh I heard a great presentation one time or on are you picking fruits or killing roots? And and sometimes you know, a consultant can go in and just kind of help help uh the client pick all the apples off the apple tree. And then next year, guess what? All the apples are back. And so they didn't really deal with the root cause of this. So so I I I try to listen very carefully to what they think are the actual root problems that they're having. And and generally they they come up a number of ways. I think the first way is maybe some misalignment at the leadership level. Um, maybe it's not getting translated down to the employees uh as well as it should be. Um second, I think breakdowns across departments. Um you have this department, you know, on the hamster wheel running really fast, and this one's over here, and they're not they're not working together. And then I think the other uh is just teams that that are very busy, but they're not coordinated, they're not working toward the same goals. So we when you hear the same problems across industries, I I found that I didn't need to invent something new. Honestly, the same problems that we're having today are the problems that organizations were having 35, 40 years ago. Yeah, and so that's where I felt like I didn't need to reinvent that. Um, so so so I ended up packaging what I already knew in a way that helped solve those problems. Um, I I I guess the metaphor that I keep coming back to is as a consultant, you need to constantly be expanding the tools in your toolbox. Uh, you know, my my father uh laid carpet, and so in his toolbox were all of these different instruments that were used for different things. And so um, you know, you pull out a tool and go, oh yeah, that's used for this, or here's the kicker, or here's the stretcher, but they were all used for something very specific. Um and so I just have kept expanding my toolbox. And I just think that businesses are gonna pay for that because the extra tools are gonna provide clarity and speed and and and reduce some of those friction points. So I I think I've built the the business around delivering exactly that. You know, you may disagree with me, you kind of are looking at it from the outside, but that's kind of what's in the back of my mind as I've driven uh into the next phase of this.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah, and I mean, I'm sure that's evolved over time. I mean, and in the, you know, even all the way stretching all the way back to to the early days, but uh, you know, as new things like AI and and digital communication has come in, I mean, I'm sure that's like made you have to rethink because now there's, you know, I I I think it for better or for worse, you know, there's a lot of communication channels where it can be, you know, a call, a Slack message, an email, a social media post, you know, all these different things that we have information coming at us, and it is can be a little overwhelming. And so I think you have to start to build new versions of, okay, let's help this leader think through. Man, you can't just tap into just email communication anymore. You have to expand that or to the younger leader. Maybe you can't have 10 different channels, like nobody knows where anything is.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

It's so well I'm and I'm afraid we're gonna we're gonna get to the point that my AI is talking to your AI, and neither you nor I know what's being discussed, you know. Yeah, that's terrifying. The people element, I think, has always got to be there. And I know that's important for you. We've had discussions about that, and it and it's important for me as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Yeah, I mean, I think it it it the complications that you have now with with messages and all of these things that you know it just the way that we interpret things is is a lot more um complex now. You always say that people are, was it far more complex than our overly simplistic perception of them. I've said that many times. And I think nowadays, in just the world we live in, you know, the perception that we have of people, whether that's through social media or through an email that was sent or whatever it is, is far more complex than the actual. So I think that's the human element that we have to lean into a lot. Sure. But I mean, you you talk to a little bit of these, but can you talk to some of the examples of just organizational communication issues that leaders maybe often overlook in their organizations? I'm sure there are a lot of things that it's a pretty weighty topic. I would say most leaders would probably say they struggle with something along that line, but can you kind of talk to things that maybe are missed a lot?

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Yeah, I I think one that comes to mind immediately is personal feedback. So we we all desire personal feedback about how we're doing. It's if it's I need to correct something or hey, you're doing something really well. And and a lot of times organizations early on will give a great deal of personal feedback during the onboarding process. And then there comes a point where they just stop and they stop giving you personal feedback because, oh, well, you're trained now, you you know. And so I I I have found that when I measure things in the organization, I take a look at tenure. So I'll look at zero to one year, and and that group, I want to see how how satisfied they are with the communication in the organization. And then I I've worked with companies that suddenly at the one-year mark, the the satisfaction level just drops. And and the organization's like, well, what in the world are we doing? And I said, You've stopped giving them personal feedback that you gave them in the onboarding process. And they're like, Oh, we haven't thought about that. So I think that's one thing personal feedback. Yeah, I think sometimes um maybe uh an assumed alignment, leaders think they're on the same page because they're in the same room with the employee, but they're but they're not. So that's a major issue. This one is a big one, I think. Message drift. Um, a clear message uh from the top uh CEO, top person. He meets with uh his or her um uh VPs and he says, This is the message I want to go. So each of the VPs takes it individually and goes to their directors, and then their directors go to the managers. By the time it's made it through all of those different iterations, you you have all sorts of interpretations. And it's like, wait a minute, uh our manager didn't tell us this. Yours did. So that's so important. I think uh that that there has to be a crafted, very specific language and maybe distributed via writing as opposed to orally given. So that that's just something to think about. Um, another one is relationship with your immediate supervisor. Um, I can't emphasize this one enough. You you've probably heard the saying that people don't leave organizations, they leave immediate supervisors. And so I think much happens uh there where they may like the climate of the organization, but they just have a lousy working relationship with their super supervisor. Um, I I last Lastly, I would say maybe nonverbal contradictions. That's something that I'm very interested in. And that's leaders saying one thing with the text, but then they're saying another thing in their tone of voice or timing or behavior. And it really starts working against them. So, you know, and these aren't dramatic failures or anything like that, but but they're small cracks that start to create structural elements later on when we're trying to deal with some of these issues.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

And I it's something that it's almost, and now I mean everything is you know recorded. And so now it's like there's just so much um pressure on leaders to have an understanding of not just the message that they're communicating through their words, but also through, okay, I am here, I am engaged, and the way that I say it, the way that I present things, my body language, all of that is communicating. And I think that's something that I would argue that is not taught. And so it's not that leaders are intentionally, you know, hiding things or acting in a way that's wrong. It's it's I think truly just people don't know how to convey themselves through whether it's a video conference too or even just up on stage. So I think that's a a massive gap. But that's that's fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

Uh and you and you know, I twice in my consulting, I've been hired to go undercover in an organization and watch what the employees and the bosses are doing and then come back and report. Here's what you were doing. Did you intend this? Because this is how it was being perceived. So that that was a lot of fun, and that's something that I I'm not aware that other consultants are doing is going undercover, which is a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

That is, yeah. I I always joke with people that uh I I could never lie to you. I had like a FBI level um, you know, interpreter. And uh, but uh I I think you you let me many times. I'm sure you knew.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

I probably did, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's uh it's not hard. I now that I have a son, it's like you are clearly not telling me the truth, but I know that. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

Um, but well, that's that's fascinating. Well, I mean, let's let's transition. So one of the other competencies that that we talk about a lot is is mastery. And so I would love to just dive a little bit in because you and I are unique that we both have PhDs. Yeah. Right. You have had your PhD a lot longer than I have. Um so let's, I mean, how has that depth of expertise led to a competitive advantage for you? You talked a little bit about that on your interest. I'd love to dive into that.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Well, for me, um, I I felt qualified when I had my master's degree going out doing uh consulting, but it wasn't until I came back with my PhD that it I it elevated me just off the charts in terms of what I knew. And I would say the the first things that come to mind for me that were beneficial were my quantitative and qualitative skills that that were required as part of my doctoral work. So these skills directly benefit the clients that I'm working with since I don't have to outsource them to someone else. If I need to design and administer a survey, then I can do that. If I need to analyze data using statistical methods, I can do that. I if I need to conduct interviews or focus groups, I can do that, or and then and then do content analysis of that. I I'm comfortable with all of that now. And so I think that benefited me. I think secondarily, my PhD from the University of Kansas was really unique. Um, and I came into the program and it was it was an equal balance of theoretical and practical. So I took some courses about communication theory, but I was also taking courses in communication assessment, working with an actual business. And so from that standpoint, KU greatly prepared me. And so I tell people, don't, don't be, you know, scared off by a PhD. That's that's not that's not what that was not my case. And I know yours was like that as well. So it it provided me the the my PhD with the depth uh of of of the of the type of consultant that can see things that others cannot. I I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I I think I can I can come in and I can name tension points that leaders feel but they can't articulate, and and and I can explain when a team is stuck, that they're not just stuck. It it really is um it's like the organization's ground to a halt with and they're stuck in the mud. And so I have the ability to go, you know what? Uh I'm not I'm not uh it doesn't affect me, but are you interested in getting out of that that mud pit? And generally they're like, oh yeah, we do. So I help guide them into that and help build ladders out of the mud pit. And I I find that very um fulfilling and very helpful to them.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Do you find that the the theoretical comes into play a lot in conversations versus the practical, here's what you need to do, like the the traction, like you mentioned, nice EOS uh play there. But like the, you know, because there is, I mean, sure, we can all understand, you know, certain practical things that need to be put in place, but sometimes understanding the theoretical, the the meaning behind the meaning, you know, that aspect, do you find that that tends to come into and probably elevate the conversation to another, call it even just another conversation level or a higher, you know, level of thinking?

SPEAKER_01 28:28

And and I you and I have had discussions about this, and and we love talking theoretical type things. So I'm a big fan of Anthony Giddens and his notion of structure. Now, I I'm not gonna lead with that with the clients, right? Because I, you know, I think they're gonna be like, I don't know what you're talking about. But if I boil Giddens down to its most bare essentials, it's the problem that you're gonna be experiencing as an organization is either organizational structure, it's structure or it's people. So let me let's have a good discussion about what you think it's is happening here. Is there something in the rules and the procedures and all of that that you're you're doing something that's preventing your employees from having a clear conversation? Or are there individuals who are pushing buttons to make uh things problematic for your for you? So and and Giddens would say it's a combination of the two. So that's that's how I'm bringing a theoretical framework and and making it practical in in some for someone who is is in the business arena and just saying, hey, is it structural or is it people, or is it both? And can we make changes on both of those? Does that does that make sense in terms of that?

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Yeah, yeah. I mean, even I I would argue a business operating system is a structure for managing human energy, right? You're putting the the procedures and the agendas and the regular cadence of things, which is the structure to manage the people in your organization, all from the leadership team all the way down to the front-level employees. We're putting in core values to where you can understand how you belong to the organization. Do you believe in what we're doing? Here's what we're going. I mean, all of these things are put into place to manage the humans and they influence each other, right? You know, the the you have the right structures in place, you're gonna get the right behaviors out of your employees. And as those behaviors go, that's gonna reinforce your structure. And when you get the wrong people in there, it starts to feel odd. And so, yeah, I mean, it's it's 100% you boil it down. But I think having that higher level of thinking to almost flesh it out in your brain, even if it's just in your brain, it allows you to guide the conversation in a much more intelligent way versus kind of trying to like figure it out in very minute concepts. It's like, hey, you've got a pretty big realm to play in. And so I think that's that's a very unique thing that the higher up in education that I think you go, and it's not for everybody, but I think it does give you a little bit of a competitive advantage. Oh, I think so.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

And, you know, I I the conversations that you and I have had about EOS, to me, companies that don't have that that uh scaffolding, you know, yep, uh would benefit from an EOS system that would give them the structure for better communication. And so there are a lot of companies out there that my first thing is like you don't really have a clear structure. Uh and and I found myself going, oh, well, I I I'm not an expert in this, but my son deals with EOS. You know, this is something you should consider. And then the people issue, I I don't know if there's a system and structure out there that's going to take care of all the problems that you're having, but but there are ideas that can help free up that people portion of things. Um, and so that that's yeah, I think that theoretical is informing my understanding of of basic issues that that companies are having.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

So let's let's shift gears here a little bit because I want to I want to continue down the path of mastery, but there's I I feel like in today's age with AI and social media and personal brands and whatnot, I mean, you could call yourself an expert about just about anything online and who's to refute you, you know. Um, and you can start to go out, and there's a lot of that out there right now. In in your mind, what does true mastery in a way that differentiates actually look like for a coach, a consultant like you?

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Yeah. Um I I think people who are truly uh understanding of a discipline, they they don't try to oversimplify it, but they also don't uh try to hide behind jargon. So it they make the complex accessible without making it shallow, if that makes sense. And and so mastery is is that ability to diagnose precisely and intervene effectively. And it's it's not about having the answers. It it really comes down to how knowing which questions really matter to guide them out of this and maybe pull the solution out of them. And I I think that's probably one thing that I've changed in the last 35 years is it's much more um effective to pull the answers out of the client as opposed to me coming in, swooping in and saying, here's what you need to do. If they have this aha moment of this is what this is what's been well pro our problem. And getting that down, I may help guide them and say, okay, now let's let's structure this, let's let's organize this in a in a rank ordered, like what's most important down to what's maybe least important. And the buy-in and the expressions on clients' faces when they come up with a notion. To me, true mastery is that ability to step back and you don't get the the praise for coming up with the idea, but you see the employee benefiting, or the manager or the leader benefiting from having come up with it him or herself.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Yeah. I mean, that's the the really almost if you boil it down from a definition of a coach versus consultant, right? I mean, the coach is gonna pull out and and guide and facilitate in a way that the team is gonna reach the conclusion versus the consultant in a traditional sense is paid based on their opinion, right? I'm gonna come in and offer my opinion. And in certain situations, it should 100%. If you do an analysis of an entire company's organizational issues, they're paying you to come in and run that and then provide you know takeaways for them on that. But I think in the way that you go in and navigate that, I completely agree. The buy-in that you're gonna get if the team comes to that conclusion and they feel that it was their solution, they're gonna go 100% harder at that than okay, well, you know, Darren over here gave me, you know, this recommendation and that's great, it's probably fine. But it, you know, it's just human nature to kind of buck, at least most entrepreneurs and leader, you know, they're gonna buck that um because they want to be the ones that come up with it. So I think that's that's a really interesting, and I think one of the things that that separates the ambitious coaches, if you will, from the mediocre ones is that aspect, the ability to come in and facilitate in a way that is leading to that fruitful conversation to where the team is working as a unit to get to that point. I think that master of facilitation is something that people have to learn. It's a learned skill, it's not something that's just inherent, which is means you can gain it, but it is a it's an art, you know, being in the session room and working with a team where you have lots of emotional, you know, you have you're gonna have a split. You're gonna have people that are all on board with things, and you're gonna have those people that are a little bit on the fence. Like, how have you dealt with those kinds of personalities? Because you and I have dialogued a little bit on that, even some of your fractional work, you know, there's always interesting characters, right, that are maybe a little bit against things, but how do you navigate that from just uh almost an emotional intelligence aspect of dealing with those people that are not quite bought in to whether it's the solution or whatever?

SPEAKER_01 37:02

I think it's the ability to read the room. When you're in there facilitating, I read a great book one time on uh how to deal with difficult people in a team setting. And so they had their different personality types, and then they had some strategies for, you know, say this to this type of person, but don't say this. And I read that book and I was like, wow, that's really a helpful um pieces of information. So now I can pretty much read the room, again, nonverbally, and and and figure out who is um, you know, this person sitting, you know, like this, or they're they're they're putting up barriers between uh between themselves and you. They're sending me signals that they're not buying into it. Um, and so I read the room and then I I start working the the room to kind of solve that. I I may go to that person and just say, well, so-and-so, uh do you have any any reservations about what what the team is proposing here? Uh would you like to verbalize any of those? And a lot of times they will. They they appreciate the opportunity and and to be given the opportunity to do that. You know, there may be others who are just just being just obnoxiously, you know, negative. And and so I I've had to uh you know deal with that type of person in the room as well. But I to me it's just being able to read the room, have a high enough emotional, high enough EQ that that you're able to tell if someone's frustrated or angry or uh confused or you know, whatever the emotion is, uh figure that out, diagnose it, and and uh solve it on the spot is kind of how I say.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Yeah, that's that's good. Yeah, that that emotional intelligence to pick up on that is something that as coaches and consultants, you have to develop that. That's right. Because you are dealing with a bunch of humans who are bringing all sorts of baggage, whether that's personal or professional, into a room and you don't know what's gonna happen in that room, that there's something may trigger, or you know, somebody needs a little bit of extra, or we need to have the ability that, hey, this person has actually been really quiet. Let's invite them into the conversation and having that wherewithal to kind of be able to get yourself up and above and be able to take a look at everything is a skill that I think separates the the good from the great.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Um it's a little more difficult now when we're doing uh virtual meetings and we can turn off our cameras and we can mute ourselves. And so as a facilitator, that makes it a little bit more difficult because people are able to put up those barriers so that you can't read what they're doing. So I think what I have to do is is look at the ones that are are silent and invisible and pull them in and say, hey, so and so, why don't you turn your camera on and and join us and tell us a little bit about what you think are the the what's the greatest strength of this idea, maybe what's the the biggest holdback. Um, but it but it means getting them out off there, you know, you know, running doing errands around the house uh while they're listening to a meeting.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

So I know that's that's like everybody's you know worst fear nowadays in the digital world. It's like, all right, cameras on, mic's on. That's right. I'm driving. Like around it. Um that's okay. So I wouldn't um I would be, you know, it would be a failure on my part if we didn't tap into a little bit of a theoretical or research-based things. So I'm curious um from your perspective, whether this is a current, you know, study or or something from your past, what is maybe one concept from communication research that you feel like just comes up a lot that leaders should be aware of? Is there something that you would say kind of sums up or just happens consistently that that you think would be interesting for leaders to dive into?

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Well, I I think I've already alluded to this, but I'll come back and and reiterate it again. And that is you need to understand the interplay between structure and the employees within that structure. And so that that comes back to the giddens that I was talking earlier. Um that structure plays a really strong role in shaping the individuals and what they can and can't do, and what what ideas they can share. But then I think sometimes managers they understand that, but they don't understand the individuals within that structure that are pushing out and and resisting and all of those things. So I just think you need to understand that interplay between the two. There is this relationship, the the structure shaping the individuals, but the individuals are in turn shaping the structure by pushing out against it, not following it, a number of different reasons. So, so you know, I I ask, is the organizational structure one of the causes of the communication tension? Um, and then, or, or are individuals in the in the organization the root of the problem? And could it be that there's a combination of the two? So that that's just a great way to kind of come in and and look at a problem and go, is it structural or is it people? Okay, if it's people, then is it this or this? You know, and we can kind of force it into two different columns. And I I have found that to be extremely helpful post-doctoral work. And yeah, you know how you know how I push Giddens.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

So it's uh it's a loaded book uh books. Um do is there a resource? I mean, is there a um Giddens for Dummies or you know, like is there a resource that you would point to that that may be on the level? I mean, I'm happy to link to the books. I mean, my dissertation talks, I mean, I kind of break it down a little bit. Like, I'm happy to like point people to that, but is there a resource that you would point that maybe is a little bit more applicable from a business standpoint?

SPEAKER_01 43:18

I wish there were something out there. There, there's like this heavy, these heavy books that he's written, and then there are some very academic type articles. Yeah. A lot of my takeaways were delving into those and then coming and saying, now how can I extrapolate this and work there? I I guess I would say, um, you know, if if you think that your organizational issues may have to do with one of those two things, contact me. Let me know how how I can maybe uh explain it in a way that helps you understand without having to go back and read all of the books. Um I I I found it very interesting that um uh then Prime Minister Tony Blair. In England, he relied on Giddens heavily during his prime minister uh time in Parliament. And so I thought, now there was an example of someone who took a really heavy theoretical principle and kind of brought it down into running the country from a prime prime minister standpoint. So I always like was like, wow, uh, way to go, uh, Prime Minister Blair, in recognizing uh the the benefits of gettings.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

That's fascinating. Yeah, it's it is amazing how much practical application there is, even in the bus the the you know ecosystem of business operating systems, of how much correlation there was. Um and so yeah, both both dad and I are you know nerds when it comes to that. Uh, but maybe that's uh, you know, a white paper we could put together sometime of how that how it applies. That's a good idea. That's a very good idea. Uh but um yeah, well man, this is this has been great. I I really appreciate you kind of taking the time and it's such a fun, you know, obviously chatting with uh your you know your father, which is fun, but it's it's been really amazing to watch you adapt and and build this over time and then continue to like build the foundation to where now, you know, leaning into this full time and the success that you've had has been fun to watch. And so I I think of you truly. I mean, I you are a master of this and and and you have built a great offering and you have a clear vision and you're good at business development and you do a good job managing your practice. I mean, you are an ambitious coach consultant. We couldn't do call it the ambitious coach, consultant, fractional executive, like we just called it coach, uh, but you are one. Um, and and so, but in in conclusion, I always like to ask guests um just two questions. If you could go back, let's go if you want to go all the way back to the the 1990s, um, but if you could go back to rookie Darren with all the knowledge and experience that you have in this current moment, what advice would you give yourself just starting out with?

SPEAKER_01 46:13

Well, you know my personality more than than most, but I think if I had to go back and tell my younger self something, it would be you don't need to prove yourself. You don't have to work so hard to get the approval of clients. You need to serve the clients. And I think that's as I've studied servant leadership, that that has that has changed my opinion. I'm not there to impress you with me. I'm there to help you out of a problem. So I I really thought early on I had to demonstrate expertise. And but but leaders, they the clients they they don't want performance, they they want a partner that's gonna help guide them to a better organizational life. So yeah, I wish I could go back and and uh and save some time, uh, but that's where I'm at now. So I've I'm appreciative that others taught me that as well.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Yeah, that's good. That's a good word for everybody because it is. I mean, it's a cutthroat industry, right? You're always trying to have to prove yourself. You got to go out and pitch yourself and and get people to buy into who you are, and then your self-worth comes into that. So, I mean, it's very easy for coaches and consultants and fractional leaders to fall into that because it's like rejection can feel very personal because oftentimes it is personal. You're just not the right fit for them, but you can't take it on that level. And if you have that mentality of, I love one of the core values of EOS, which is help first, it's just show up, help, be there, serve. Then it's gonna, it's only gonna benefit from you. And I think you're a testament of that. You've seen that of how that's you know opened up your practice for you. So I I appreciate you sharing that. I that's that's meaningful. Um, and then the second thing, um, so if this you know previous question was more reflective, um, now we can take a little bit more just current state. Like, what's a lesson that you are in the middle of learning in this current moment?

SPEAKER_01 48:06

For me, it goes down the path of work life balance. And I'm I'm finding that I need to build margin into my my daily routine. And and when I say margin, I I mean just time for myself, uh, rest, thought. Um sometimes you can get so busy on the hamster wheel that you you really just don't have time to analyze individual problems. So the the more I can rest, um I let me put it this way. I I think I looked at rest as a luxury. It's like, oh well, I can't afford that luxury right now. And it but but it it really ultimately provides me with a strategic advantage working with clients because if if I'm in a good place mentally rest, all of those things, I'm gonna be in a better place to help serve the client. So that's something I think I'm just gonna always be working on and um and and and trying to maintain a better work-life balance.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

It's easy to, you know, put the the pedal down and not look back, and then pretty soon your you know, personal life or health or whatever it is, emotional state is you know falling to to pieces, and that's not a healthy way to live. And so that's uh that's a good word. I appreciate sharing that. Well, thank you, Dad, for for coming on and having this conversation. I I know it's been beneficial for me. I mean, even opening up the, you know, I have had a lot of context, but you know, even things that that I hadn't thought through. So um, I know it was beneficial for me and I'm sure for many others. But let's say, I mean, if someone wants to get in touch with you, they want to learn a little bit more about, you know, the communication consulting that's a very niche focused, like what's the best place to get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Well, you can go to my website, which is www.theparadoxway.com, and that explains some of what we do. It's got both my and your bios in there and a way to contact us individually. Um, and and you're welcome to contact me. It's Darren at the ParadoxWay.com. And I love dialoguing with you, and we can have an initial conversation and just see what your needs might be. I'm happy to do that and would welcome anybody uh and everybody who who who has questions and and needs some help.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

Awesome. Yeah, we'll link out to all that in the show notes and some of the other resources we talked about if anybody wants to delve into the old Anthony Giddens book. Um But the uh yeah, no, I I really appreciate you you taking the time to to have this conversation. And um, yeah, it's it's one of those things that that's we wanted to bring a wide range of not just EOS implementers or just fractional leaders or just coaches, because I think we can learn from everybody in this space and the best of the best. And so I feel blessed every single day that that I get to have conversations, and so it means a lot to me to have you on this show.

SPEAKER_01 51:04

So um it's it's been an honor, Cameron, and thank you and uh looking forward to continued uh collaboration going into the future. So thanks for having me on today.

SPEAKER_00 51:15

Absolutely, and thank you all for listening. We'll have many more episodes coming your way soon. Take care. That's it for today's episode of the Ambitious Coach Lab. My hope is that something here helps you sharpen your craft and keep building a coaching practice you're proud of. Before we wrap, a quick thank you to our sponsor, 90. If you're coaching leadership teams, having your clients run their entire world in 90 truly elevates your work. Vision, rocks, scorecards, issues, it all lives in one centralized place. The clarity keeps your clients aligned between sections and makes every conversation you have with them more focused and more impactful. I've used 90 with over 500 leadership teams, and I can tell you it makes great companies better and great coaches even more effective. Feel free to use the promo code AC20 for 20% off. Again, that's AC20 for 20% off. Thanks for hanging out with me today. I'm Cam. Cheering on as you grow your ambitious coaching project. We'll see you next time.